The Good Doctor seems out of his depth on this subject. And so, drowning in it, he grabs for time-worn canards. It should be noted that his evident vitriol towards Jews makes for a very poor life vest.
Well said, sir. Thanks for commenting! I guess I’m trying to “slap his back with a Jew canoe paddle,” hoping to find some shore where we can scrape two sentences together. Tall order. We can’t all be your dad. Trying. (This is in reference to a short story in Peter Himmelman’s book, where his dad used his innate courage and charisma to build an unexpected bridge with some tough Native American dudes.)
Yes! I caught the reference. It made me smile. It’s all about the velocity of the swing. Had my dad found that shirtless man a true threat, it’s possible he would have sunk to the bottom of Cedar Lake.
The Sanhedrin wanted him dead. They asked the Romans to have him executed. The Romans didn’t want to do it. The Roman Procurator. Pontius Pilate, found no crime in him. But the Sanhedrin insisted.
They offered him to the Jerusalem mob (Jews). They could save Jesus, or Barrabas, a known murderer. The Jerusalem mob chose to save Barrabas.
There’s no such thing as hereditary guilt. Jews today aren’t responsible for the sins of their ancestors.
But to say “we don’t know who killed Jesus” is self-serving and disingenuous. The Romans drove the nails, but he was condemned to death by a mob of mostly Jews, with the imprimatur of the Sanhedrin. That’s a historical fact.
I’m totally willing to say that Jews, even the “imprimatur of San Hedrin” at the time, lobbied Pilate to kill Jesus.
I never said “we don’t know who killed Jesus.”
And clearly we agree not to smear an entire people just because of heredity, that’s smart. Great.
My point though in the piece is that telling Pilate to kill Jesus, even if it DID happen, and maybe it did, doesn’t matter, because based on my understanding, the imprimatur doing that is something Jews think is ugly, many would’ve thought it was ugly then, and almost ALL would see that as ugly now, because even THEN, in its time, it arguably violated the known Jewish moral code.
The guys who told Pilate to kill Jesus says way more about political expedience in a colonial pressure cooker than it does about Judaism or Jews. Killing Jesus in that way, telling someone to do that, is the OPPOSITE of Judaism.
I remember seeing a video of some Muslim extremist in a London subway who had just beheaded someone in plain daylight, and one of the locals stopped and said “you ain’t no Muslim, bruv.”
I loved that and agreed. Because that act isn’t consistent with Islam. It was a psycho who was also caught it in throes of radical Islamism. But mostly that guy in the subway was a nut.
The reason it’s so painful to see people talk about how the “Jews killed Jesus” is because we are obsessed with law, justice, and debate. So it’s ironic. I’ve never heard a single Jew defend the killing of Jesus. It’s gross and horrible and evil.
The consensus among Jews I know is that if Jesus was killed with Jewish involvement, it wasn’t through any honest enactment of that system. It was for sure a distortion, a fear-driven exception, and not a simple rule lifted straight from the book while all Jews nodded along and still do. Murder of that kind is sick, full stop. And killing a guy who preached love and kindness is sick BEYOND sick. Every single Jew and Rabbi I know describes Jesus as probably a great guy. (And some even say he’s the Messiah, I get that. We don’t. But each to his own. Not a crime, go, worship, gezunt, do it in good health.)
When someone says “the Jews killed Jesus,” or that they told someone else to do it, they’re not wrong, per se, but it’s SUCH a distortion. They say oh “the Jews were jealous so they had him killed.”
Like, careful with that! That propaganda has justified centuries of hate and violence against a nice people who would’ve in reality stood up for Jesus or anyone else being stupidly hurt like that. We’d stand up for you. I would. We are a human family of Earth, guy.
PEOPLE killed Jesus. Jews, Romans, wtvr. Judaism didn’t.
You’re trying to be thoughtful, but it comes out as - sorry! - self-serving.
Yes, “people” killed Jesus. “People” have done everything evil since time began (because animals aren’t capable of evil).
But which people?
The fact that they were Jews is NOT incidental. In fact, it’s central to the narrative.
The people CHOSEN by God to bring forth his Savior into the world REJECTED the Savior when he came.
They rejected their own scriptures and prophecies. Jesus s thusly fulfilled them all, despite the accidental and purposeful misinterpretations done at the time, and since then.
As a Jew, let me ask you: What makes you a Jew?
Faith? Do you believe?
Tradition? Ok…But tradition and faith don’t need to be mutually exclusive.
Family ties? Sure…But again, that doesn’t impart truth, necessarily.
I urge you to study the Gospels and the New Testament with an open mind.
I already made it clear I studied the gospels and also that I’m fine admitting some Jews may have pressured Rome to kill Jesus. Totally wouldn’t put it past people to do that, Jewish or not. If Jewish people did it, my contention is it’s because they were people not because they were Jewish. Historically, Jews are the least “religiously” murderous of the three main religions. If Jewish leaders asked Romans to kill a Jew who broke Jewish laws, fine, that doesn’t reflect Judaism as a whole or as a doctrine. I see Jesus as a mensch, a good teacher, not the Messiah. Most Jews today agree. Jesus turned out to be important in what he revealed about human nature. Judaism has deep reasoning for not accepting Jesus as divine. Wasn’t stubbornness or blindness. I’ve read the New Testament and thought deeply about this so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. I’m not having a theological debate with you. I’m saying YOU need to go read Judaism once before I go back a tenth time to read the Gospels, if you want the real reasons for our approach to Jesus. I’ve heard Christianity’s explanation. That’s fine as an opinion but it doesn’t represent what Judaism is or what most Jews think. It’s “low effort.”
And spreading around low effort cartoon versions of the story is dangerous. To be clear, I’m not calling Christianity low effort. The story of the Jews killing him and what that signifies is often low effort.
Judaism not equal to Old Testament as I mentioned clearly in my piece. It’s Talmud, Midrash, Halacha, Kabbalah, Oral Law. We read Isaiah 52–54 as one continuous prophecy. Israel is the servant. It refers to Israel not Jesus. (In our interpretation, you’re free to have yours.) We’re looking for something else, namely someone to rebuild the Temple, gather exiles, end war, and spread universal knowledge of God.
I like Jesus. I don’t think he’s the Messiah. You can. I might be wrong. But that’s up to me.
It’s not for lack of hearing you out. If anything it’s painfully obvious to us Jews that the asymmetry goes the other way, but again, just our opinion, we might be wrong, that’s ok.
At least it’s okay with us. You guys seem not okay with it. You wanted to kill over it. We think that’s dumb. And gross. And hopefully out of your system. It seems to be. For that I give my respect to your wise clergy, and our bizarre durability. Together, we made it to peace. Now we have to deal with Islamists.
I already told you my position and also said it could ALL BE WRONG.
I’m not interested in debating you on religion. You know more, I’m sure.
I’m just correcting you on the basics of communication prior to even discussing religion. You come off as confused, arrogant and deeply sloppy.
Talmud is just centuries of writings upon writings and musings of musings of musings.
It was written by people, not inspired by God.
Who wanted to “kill over it?”
That’s interesting. Your assigning blood-guilt to modern Christians for something that happened centuries ago, yet explicitly rejecting it for the crucifixion of Christ.
If you think your position could be wrong - that Christ might be the Messiah - for your own sake, you might want to explore that with an open mind.
"Half the world would prefer us gone from the chessboard. Maybe more. If they could push a button and make us vanish, they would." I sincerely hope this isn't true. I believe that what we hear most loudly is the voice of a very vocal minority, and the silence of a passive majority. The world would undoubtedly be a much poorer place without Jews. ❤️
I think cultures, much like organic life, evolve and adapt over time. Just as ecosystems rely on diversity to thrive, human societies flourish through the blending of different ideas, traditions, and perspectives. The Jewish contribution to this cultural tapestry is both ancient and vital. To suggest that the world would be better off without judaism ignores the organic process of cultural evolution, which requires the participation of every group. It's never about any single culture 'taking over' or being eradicated, but about creating a dynamic and resilient world where we all contribute to something greater. The Jewish people, through centuries of struggle, creativity, and resilience, have played an irreplaceable role in that process.
By removing you, I actually remove a part of myself. If one culture were erased, it would not only diminish the world, but also strip away a fundamental part of who I am, since my own identity is intertwined with the contributions and existence of yours. This is what fascists do not understand.
Having been raised in a secular home, all y'all confuse the shit out of me. Christianity particularly, especially the White Nationalist kind. Blech. There are times when I am so grateful that I am an ignorant heathen. This was amazing, though. I always wondered why the split happened. And for the record, it all seems like made up crowd control to me, too.
The Good Doctor seems out of his depth on this subject. And so, drowning in it, he grabs for time-worn canards. It should be noted that his evident vitriol towards Jews makes for a very poor life vest.
Well said, sir. Thanks for commenting! I guess I’m trying to “slap his back with a Jew canoe paddle,” hoping to find some shore where we can scrape two sentences together. Tall order. We can’t all be your dad. Trying. (This is in reference to a short story in Peter Himmelman’s book, where his dad used his innate courage and charisma to build an unexpected bridge with some tough Native American dudes.)
Yes! I caught the reference. It made me smile. It’s all about the velocity of the swing. Had my dad found that shirtless man a true threat, it’s possible he would have sunk to the bottom of Cedar Lake.
Scripture is quite clear on who killed Jesus.
The Sanhedrin wanted him dead. They asked the Romans to have him executed. The Romans didn’t want to do it. The Roman Procurator. Pontius Pilate, found no crime in him. But the Sanhedrin insisted.
They offered him to the Jerusalem mob (Jews). They could save Jesus, or Barrabas, a known murderer. The Jerusalem mob chose to save Barrabas.
There’s no such thing as hereditary guilt. Jews today aren’t responsible for the sins of their ancestors.
But to say “we don’t know who killed Jesus” is self-serving and disingenuous. The Romans drove the nails, but he was condemned to death by a mob of mostly Jews, with the imprimatur of the Sanhedrin. That’s a historical fact.
I’m totally willing to say that Jews, even the “imprimatur of San Hedrin” at the time, lobbied Pilate to kill Jesus.
I never said “we don’t know who killed Jesus.”
And clearly we agree not to smear an entire people just because of heredity, that’s smart. Great.
My point though in the piece is that telling Pilate to kill Jesus, even if it DID happen, and maybe it did, doesn’t matter, because based on my understanding, the imprimatur doing that is something Jews think is ugly, many would’ve thought it was ugly then, and almost ALL would see that as ugly now, because even THEN, in its time, it arguably violated the known Jewish moral code.
The guys who told Pilate to kill Jesus says way more about political expedience in a colonial pressure cooker than it does about Judaism or Jews. Killing Jesus in that way, telling someone to do that, is the OPPOSITE of Judaism.
I remember seeing a video of some Muslim extremist in a London subway who had just beheaded someone in plain daylight, and one of the locals stopped and said “you ain’t no Muslim, bruv.”
I loved that and agreed. Because that act isn’t consistent with Islam. It was a psycho who was also caught it in throes of radical Islamism. But mostly that guy in the subway was a nut.
The reason it’s so painful to see people talk about how the “Jews killed Jesus” is because we are obsessed with law, justice, and debate. So it’s ironic. I’ve never heard a single Jew defend the killing of Jesus. It’s gross and horrible and evil.
The consensus among Jews I know is that if Jesus was killed with Jewish involvement, it wasn’t through any honest enactment of that system. It was for sure a distortion, a fear-driven exception, and not a simple rule lifted straight from the book while all Jews nodded along and still do. Murder of that kind is sick, full stop. And killing a guy who preached love and kindness is sick BEYOND sick. Every single Jew and Rabbi I know describes Jesus as probably a great guy. (And some even say he’s the Messiah, I get that. We don’t. But each to his own. Not a crime, go, worship, gezunt, do it in good health.)
When someone says “the Jews killed Jesus,” or that they told someone else to do it, they’re not wrong, per se, but it’s SUCH a distortion. They say oh “the Jews were jealous so they had him killed.”
Like, careful with that! That propaganda has justified centuries of hate and violence against a nice people who would’ve in reality stood up for Jesus or anyone else being stupidly hurt like that. We’d stand up for you. I would. We are a human family of Earth, guy.
PEOPLE killed Jesus. Jews, Romans, wtvr. Judaism didn’t.
No, sorry.
You’re trying to be thoughtful, but it comes out as - sorry! - self-serving.
Yes, “people” killed Jesus. “People” have done everything evil since time began (because animals aren’t capable of evil).
But which people?
The fact that they were Jews is NOT incidental. In fact, it’s central to the narrative.
The people CHOSEN by God to bring forth his Savior into the world REJECTED the Savior when he came.
They rejected their own scriptures and prophecies. Jesus s thusly fulfilled them all, despite the accidental and purposeful misinterpretations done at the time, and since then.
As a Jew, let me ask you: What makes you a Jew?
Faith? Do you believe?
Tradition? Ok…But tradition and faith don’t need to be mutually exclusive.
Family ties? Sure…But again, that doesn’t impart truth, necessarily.
I urge you to study the Gospels and the New Testament with an open mind.
I already made it clear I studied the gospels and also that I’m fine admitting some Jews may have pressured Rome to kill Jesus. Totally wouldn’t put it past people to do that, Jewish or not. If Jewish people did it, my contention is it’s because they were people not because they were Jewish. Historically, Jews are the least “religiously” murderous of the three main religions. If Jewish leaders asked Romans to kill a Jew who broke Jewish laws, fine, that doesn’t reflect Judaism as a whole or as a doctrine. I see Jesus as a mensch, a good teacher, not the Messiah. Most Jews today agree. Jesus turned out to be important in what he revealed about human nature. Judaism has deep reasoning for not accepting Jesus as divine. Wasn’t stubbornness or blindness. I’ve read the New Testament and thought deeply about this so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. I’m not having a theological debate with you. I’m saying YOU need to go read Judaism once before I go back a tenth time to read the Gospels, if you want the real reasons for our approach to Jesus. I’ve heard Christianity’s explanation. That’s fine as an opinion but it doesn’t represent what Judaism is or what most Jews think. It’s “low effort.”
And spreading around low effort cartoon versions of the story is dangerous. To be clear, I’m not calling Christianity low effort. The story of the Jews killing him and what that signifies is often low effort.
I’ve read the Old Testament.
Ergo, ipso facto, I’ve read Judaism.
Jesus was not a “good teacher.”
That option is not available.
When you read his words, there are only three (3) conclusions one can logically draw:
1. He was insane
2. He was a liar
3. He was telling the truth
You keep saying “Jews don’t agree he was the messiah.”
Bravo! How surprising! 🙄
Also irrelevant.
You also keep saying “Judaism has deep reasoning fur not accepting Jesus as the Messiah.”
Cool! Let’s hear it!
I’m totally serious. I’d love to hear this “deep reasoning.”
Meanwhile, read this. It’s from Isaiah. You know? Judaism?
“53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Judaism not equal to Old Testament as I mentioned clearly in my piece. It’s Talmud, Midrash, Halacha, Kabbalah, Oral Law. We read Isaiah 52–54 as one continuous prophecy. Israel is the servant. It refers to Israel not Jesus. (In our interpretation, you’re free to have yours.) We’re looking for something else, namely someone to rebuild the Temple, gather exiles, end war, and spread universal knowledge of God.
I like Jesus. I don’t think he’s the Messiah. You can. I might be wrong. But that’s up to me.
It’s not for lack of hearing you out. If anything it’s painfully obvious to us Jews that the asymmetry goes the other way, but again, just our opinion, we might be wrong, that’s ok.
At least it’s okay with us. You guys seem not okay with it. You wanted to kill over it. We think that’s dumb. And gross. And hopefully out of your system. It seems to be. For that I give my respect to your wise clergy, and our bizarre durability. Together, we made it to peace. Now we have to deal with Islamists.
I already told you my position and also said it could ALL BE WRONG.
I’m not interested in debating you on religion. You know more, I’m sure.
I’m just correcting you on the basics of communication prior to even discussing religion. You come off as confused, arrogant and deeply sloppy.
I still don’t know why.
Isaiah 52-54 does not refer to Israel, btw.
That’s an absolutely silly conclusion, especially when one reads through the life of Christ in the Gospels.
It’s what one might say when they’re purposefully trying to avoid the obvious?
Talmud is just centuries of writings upon writings and musings of musings of musings.
It was written by people, not inspired by God.
Who wanted to “kill over it?”
That’s interesting. Your assigning blood-guilt to modern Christians for something that happened centuries ago, yet explicitly rejecting it for the crucifixion of Christ.
If you think your position could be wrong - that Christ might be the Messiah - for your own sake, you might want to explore that with an open mind.
As one Jew to another, you hit the nail on the head. Happy Hanukkah!
"Half the world would prefer us gone from the chessboard. Maybe more. If they could push a button and make us vanish, they would." I sincerely hope this isn't true. I believe that what we hear most loudly is the voice of a very vocal minority, and the silence of a passive majority. The world would undoubtedly be a much poorer place without Jews. ❤️
I think cultures, much like organic life, evolve and adapt over time. Just as ecosystems rely on diversity to thrive, human societies flourish through the blending of different ideas, traditions, and perspectives. The Jewish contribution to this cultural tapestry is both ancient and vital. To suggest that the world would be better off without judaism ignores the organic process of cultural evolution, which requires the participation of every group. It's never about any single culture 'taking over' or being eradicated, but about creating a dynamic and resilient world where we all contribute to something greater. The Jewish people, through centuries of struggle, creativity, and resilience, have played an irreplaceable role in that process.
By removing you, I actually remove a part of myself. If one culture were erased, it would not only diminish the world, but also strip away a fundamental part of who I am, since my own identity is intertwined with the contributions and existence of yours. This is what fascists do not understand.
Having been raised in a secular home, all y'all confuse the shit out of me. Christianity particularly, especially the White Nationalist kind. Blech. There are times when I am so grateful that I am an ignorant heathen. This was amazing, though. I always wondered why the split happened. And for the record, it all seems like made up crowd control to me, too.
I don’t think you understand Judaism, let alone Christianity.
I never claimed I did, dummy
When the Jews are referred to as “the Chosen People,” what did that mean?